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TOPIC: Serious discourse for dual wielding

Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87423

  • Acetylene_C2H2
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Hello!

I've been a long time Escrima practitioner and something I have seen in ULF and several other combat events are people -attempting- to dual wield. From my observations and only my personal experience with my family's esoteric brand of FMA, they seemed to be severely unskilled.

I would like to dissect reasons why it seems like that (saber type, weight and dimensions play a factor, and I am sure there is something I am missing being new to actual light saber combat) to rule out lack of skill.

I would also like to discuss the viability of this option. Myself, I will be utilizing twin Sentinel Shotos with 32" blade by June and I would like to provide as much insight to dual wielding as possible, as well as add more tools to my tool box. Eventually I will be uploading video of some of my drills and carrenza routines for critiques.

I do have some opening thoughts about it:

using doubles that pushed a max length of 36" I was able to overpower a talented staff user due to their weapon lacking long enough blades (24") or by working within their pivoting area.

shorter blades for me kept it a bit more fair, until I was able to close to a much closer range. (24" twin sabers VS the staff)

against single full length sabers, a pair of 26 inch blades is advantageous, unless its a light saber pike or whip. It can bridge gaps but its no substitute for skill.

Here are some of the concepts and insights I bring into my style and form (from my grandfathers notes on his "Arnis De Manong Tucay"):

maintain flow from the beginning of an attack or parry. when one arm attacks the other should be moving in anticipation of reprisal from the opponent, and when one arm blocks the other should be moving in for the kill.

avoid attacking twice from the same angle. if your left hand went high, right hand goes mid or low etc. chaos and unpredictability are the dual wielder's advantage.

Know how your body moves. fancy sword work doesn't mean anything if you cannot get your kinesthetics right. if you are going to dual wield, make sure your training puts heavy emphasis on making sure your movements are smooth, from footwork on up. fencing shuffle steps do not work well for this.

look up Escrima Double Sinawali for some cool inspiration and tips as well :)

Just my thoughts and please weigh in with your observations and critiques! looking forward to the exchange of ideas! I am hoping to train a few others :)
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87431

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I haven't had really any formal training, but I have heard it mentioned quite often that escrima is one of the better disciplines for lightsaber combat, particularly dual wielding.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87432

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It can be. I have only recently been able to apply the teachings to LS. if I have a single saber I tend to lose against fencers due to my emphasis on slashing over thrusts, and the short single escrima tends to lose over an opponent with a protracted reach that knows how to apply it. Double weapons negate that advantage considerably.

because I am used to rattan sticks, my ripostes and flow have are also impacted by the weight of the saber if I am only using one. a lot of Escrima single baton combat uses erratic directional changes (Slash down, past their guard then cut upwards with the false edge or a slash that is immediately followed by a thrust, similar to Farfalle di Fero but single handed etc).

but when someone loans me twins that are 36"+ I feel like a T-Rex with arm upgrades things get better for me

EDIT: There is a HUGE downside to training Kali and Escrima in regards to its applications in Saber Combat: 65% of the moves and drills revolve around actually destroying the opponents weapon or their limbs through use of actual hand to hand. so, for example someone can give me a diagonal strike to the left side of my head, and one of the parries involves stepping into the attack while doing a simple side block with the weapon and using my offhand to grab the attacking arm. the immediate tendency on my end its to drive the pommel of my saber into their elbow as hard as I can. Esc(k)rima and Kali are very much so about these kind of things
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87450

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Very interesting, thanks for sharing!
I was planning on picking up kendo next week, and there's an escrima class just before that i thought was tempting.. I may just sign up.

I was also interested in picking up win-chun, as the philosophy around butterfly knives i find interesting, anyone have any experience?
Acetylene_C2H2 wrote:
EDIT: There is a HUGE downside to training Kali and Escrima in regards to its applications in Saber Combat: 65% of the moves and drills revolve around actually destroying the opponents weapon or their limbs through use of actual hand to hand. so, for example someone can give me a diagonal strike to the left side of my head, and one of the parries involves stepping into the attack while doing a simple side block with the weapon and using my offhand to grab the attacking arm. the immediate tendency on my end its to drive the pommel of my saber into their elbow as hard as I can. Esc(k)rima and Kali are very much so about these kind of things

I'm not sure why this would be disadvantageous, perhaps you could clarify? Is it that this move would be illegal? Or that we consider the whole saber blade to be a cutting edge and amputations are preferred to bruises and broken bones?
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87451

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I've accidentally hurt opponents or ruined sabers with illegal moves in the heat of the moment, but I've gotten better.

As for butterfly knives, the person I worked with is all show but I have seen wing chin practitioners give better than they get against a boken :)
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87458

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Lightsabers as a martial art is very new, and very much evolving. Stick fighting of various forms definitely translates well, but so do a whole host of other weapons based systems.

I train in Japanese sword arts, specifically around the katana, and there are certainly some techniques which would work well with a 30-37" bladed light saber, but there are is also a whole lot that doesn't. So, while you can bring knowledge of other martial techniques into Lightsabers as a martial art, ultimately they are totally different "weapons" and will eventually evolve into their forms and techniques. I personally prefer to practice some free form flows with sabers, more similar to Wushu than anything in the Kenjitsu koryus.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87460

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If I've learned anything about similar sword dual wielding as opposed to traditional Florentine or Katana/wakisashi styles, it is definitely the emphasis on flow. A single sword is simultaneously a tool for offense as well as defense, and the user's flow and thus the concentration they are administering to their own movement is positioned solely on a single implement.

On the other hand, two weapons of similar length are the opposite extreme. In the case of an acrobatic form of lightsaber dueling such as Ataru, both sabers would be on a constant offensive, and for a form like Soresu, both sabers would need to work in tandem to create a Circle of Protection, and both of thise prospects seem like they would be exhausting. But for something like Form V Shien/DjemSo, one weapon is offense, one is defense, but those characteristics are constantly shifting between the two weapons, meaning that the user's focus is changing as well. The switching has to become second nature and your hands need to be moving almost independently of each other at all times. But this is mostly just speculation, since I don't have a dedicated sparring partner to try new ideas with.


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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87461

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here is a drill that's similar to what I do with my trainer.



Kali Center's YouTube has some decent beginner drills that help with coordination with twin weapons.

My main observation of actual LS battles featuring a dual wielder though is that the tendancy to do huge power swings from one side with both sabers is all to common. Usually, they leave themselves open to some real punishing counter attacks, which to me seems really counterintuitive.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87462

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Eddlyss64 wrote:
If I've learned anything about similar sword dual wielding as opposed to traditional Florentine or Katana/wakisashi styles, it is definitely the emphasis on flow. A single sword is simultaneously a tool for offense as well as defense, and the user's flow and thus the concentration they are administering to their own movement is positioned solely on a single implement.

On the other hand, two weapons of similar length are the opposite extreme. In the case of an acrobatic form of lightsaber dueling such as Ataru, both sabers would be on a constant offensive, and for a form like Soresu, both sabers would need to work in tandem to create a Circle of Protection, and both of thise prospects seem like they would be exhausting. But for something like Form V Shien/DjemSo, one weapon is offense, one is defense, but those characteristics are constantly shifting between the two weapons, meaning that the user's focus is changing as well. The switching has to become second nature and your hands need to be moving almost independently of each other at all times. But this is mostly just speculation, since I don't have a dedicated sparring partner to try new ideas with.

There's a good reason most dual wielding forms feature shorter weapons, they are lighter. Trust me, swinging a "long sword" around one handed puts a lot of stress on the wrists, and is very tiring. You also can't change direction very quickly. My katanas range from 27" to 29" in length with is on the longer side of things for a traditional odachi (Long sword). Granted I'm abut 6' tall so body proportion wise it works out. If I were facing a dual wielding opponent, if they had two long swords, I would take advantage of the inability to change direction and direct the swords easily and quickly. Even if they were already in a flow, a hard fast two handed strike to their weapons would disrupt the flow and create a break for a follow up fast attack. In the case of a Katana, the actual attack wouldn't have to be done hard, just executed properly for a kill.

An adversary with two shorter weapons is much more dangerous, they now have high mobility with their weapons, and the ability to attack in unpredictable ways. My goal would be to force them to parry two handed attacks, which they likely would not be able to do so fully. Forcing them to the defensive would be the primary goal as would limiting their ability to move. I'd want to do whatever I could to keep them from being able to establish a flow or to have room to spin their weapons. Being able to match their speed but with more force from the single blade would be ideal. Again, attacking their weapons first and looking for an opening for a fast strike or even a thrust. That is with a katana though, which when wielded properly is very fast, and extremely lethal, but is a shorter "long sword".

Something like a typical European long sword at 34-36" in blade length would be a heavier blade, not as fast, but would have the extra reach. It would be ideal to slash at a dual wielder's weapons and follow with a thrust, maintaining range.

The best counter though would be the spear or staff. Range and speed, would be exceptionally difficult for a dual wielder with short swords to be effective against a well trained spearman. Which coincidentally is why spear like weapons were still the primary battlefield weapon for armies from different parts of the world for thousands of years.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87465

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Jas-Ot wrote:

There's a good reason most dual wielding forms feature shorter weapons, they are lighter. Trust me, swinging a "long sword" around one handed puts a lot of stress on the wrists, and is very tiring. You also can't change direction very quickly. My katanas range from 27" to 29" in length with is on the longer side of things for a traditional odachi (Long sword). Granted I'm abut 6' tall so body proportion wise it works out. If I were facing a dual wielding opponent, if they had two long swords, I would take advantage of the inability to change direction and direct the swords easily and quickly. Even if they were already in a flow, a hard fast two handed strike to their weapons would disrupt the flow and create a break for a follow up fast attack. In the case of a Katana, the actual attack wouldn't have to be done hard, just executed properly for a kill.

An adversary with two shorter weapons is much more dangerous, they now have high mobility with their weapons, and the ability to attack in unpredictable ways. My goal would be to force them to parry two handed attacks, which they likely would not be able to do so fully. Forcing them to the defensive would be the primary goal as would limiting their ability to move. I'd want to do whatever I could to keep them from being able to establish a flow or to have room to spin their weapons. Being able to match their speed but with more force from the single blade would be ideal. Again, attacking their weapons first and looking for an opening for a fast strike or even a thrust. That is with a katana though, which when wielded properly is very fast, and extremely lethal, but is a shorter "long sword".

Something like a typical European long sword at 34-36" in blade length would be a heavier blade, not as fast, but would have the extra reach. It would be ideal to slash at a dual wielder's weapons and follow with a thrust, maintaining range.

The best counter though would be the spear or staff. Range and speed, would be exceptionally difficult for a dual wielder with short swords to be effective against a well trained spearman. Which coincidentally is why spear like weapons were still the primary battlefield weapon for armies from different parts of the world for thousands of years.

There is a ton of truth to this. As it stands, 40" (Hilt and blade combined) is my operational limit. its rough on the wrists, and my reaction times are less than optimal, but I am getting faster each day. However I don't think "flow" is as much important as body awareness. Disrupting the flow, yes, will provide openings and definitely ruin my day if I am only focusing on that, but anyone who just sticks to the patterns and keeps flowing will get tired fast and deserves to get their butts handed to them.

my thoughts if I am taking on a powerful two handed attack would be to evade and deflect and then counter attack, and yes I would need a pair of mid sized weapons for that. something I have also done to fair success its cross my blades and catch the other person's saber on the forte of my blades to maintain an element of control as I close to a range where I can still bring my weapons to bear but they cannot. its worked against a few foes, and looks cool lol
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87467

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Acetylene_C2H2 wrote:
Jas-Ot wrote:

There's a good reason most dual wielding forms feature shorter weapons, they are lighter. Trust me, swinging a "long sword" around one handed puts a lot of stress on the wrists, and is very tiring. You also can't change direction very quickly. My katanas range from 27" to 29" in length with is on the longer side of things for a traditional odachi (Long sword). Granted I'm abut 6' tall so body proportion wise it works out. If I were facing a dual wielding opponent, if they had two long swords, I would take advantage of the inability to change direction and direct the swords easily and quickly. Even if they were already in a flow, a hard fast two handed strike to their weapons would disrupt the flow and create a break for a follow up fast attack. In the case of a Katana, the actual attack wouldn't have to be done hard, just executed properly for a kill.

An adversary with two shorter weapons is much more dangerous, they now have high mobility with their weapons, and the ability to attack in unpredictable ways. My goal would be to force them to parry two handed attacks, which they likely would not be able to do so fully. Forcing them to the defensive would be the primary goal as would limiting their ability to move. I'd want to do whatever I could to keep them from being able to establish a flow or to have room to spin their weapons. Being able to match their speed but with more force from the single blade would be ideal. Again, attacking their weapons first and looking for an opening for a fast strike or even a thrust. That is with a katana though, which when wielded properly is very fast, and extremely lethal, but is a shorter "long sword".

Something like a typical European long sword at 34-36" in blade length would be a heavier blade, not as fast, but would have the extra reach. It would be ideal to slash at a dual wielder's weapons and follow with a thrust, maintaining range.

The best counter though would be the spear or staff. Range and speed, would be exceptionally difficult for a dual wielder with short swords to be effective against a well trained spearman. Which coincidentally is why spear like weapons were still the primary battlefield weapon for armies from different parts of the world for thousands of years.

There is a ton of truth to this. As it stands, 40" (Hilt and blade combined) is my operational limit. its rough on the wrists, and my reaction times are less than optimal, but I am getting faster each day. However I don't think "flow" is as much important as body awareness. Disrupting the flow, yes, will provide openings and definitely ruin my day if I am only focusing on that, but anyone who just sticks to the patterns and keeps flowing will get tired fast and deserves to get their butts handed to them.

my thoughts if I am taking on a powerful two handed attack would be to evade and deflect and then counter attack, and yes I would need a pair of mid sized weapons for that. something I have also done to fair success its cross my blades and catch the other person's saber on the forte of my blades to maintain an element of control as I close to a range where I can still bring my weapons to bear but they cannot. its worked against a few foes, and looks cool lol

The weapon catch is something I've trained in with dual swords, crossing the blades to catch and control the opponents weapon. It's harder than it looks to do right. Like anything it can be used against you, a hard attack either down one of the kesa lines or direct center forcing you to "catch" the weapon will put it likely right in line for a thrust to the face, neck, or chest. ALWAYS direct the opponents weapon away so a direct thrust isn't possible.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87468

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Jas-Ot wrote:
ALWAYS direct the opponents weapon away so a direct thrust isn't possible.

I keep forgetting this isn't always common sense for everyone. thank you for ensuring this is well known as it should be.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 3 weeks ago #87477

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I've never done serious sparring or flow drills, but I can usually max out at 45” before the weapon starts feeling cumbersome. Odachis and claymores always interested me, and my understanding early on of lightsabers was a hilt with a blade that extended to about a meter long, which actually makes most lightsabers pretty long.

I'd never want to dual wield with a weapon of that size, but single swording of that caliber makes sense to me.


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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 2 weeks ago #87582

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dual wielding Claymores can be done, it just can't be done well lol.

all joking aside, there are some odd disadvantages to it. Particularly powerful blows from your opponent (two handed) are difficult to bring to a full stop with a single handed weapon, which is why deflections are superior to hard parries.
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 1 week ago #88055

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Acetylene_C2H2 wrote:
dual wielding Claymores can be done, it just can't be done well lol.

all joking aside, there are some odd disadvantages to it. Particularly powerful blows from your opponent (two handed) are difficult to bring to a full stop with a single handed weapon, which is why deflections are superior to hard parries.

Who would ever want to dual-wield Claymores? Seems to me like using the two sides of a tong in either hand, rather than puttung the pieces together and using both in tandem. Just doesn't make sense to me.

You're going to be able to generate much more power and retain more precision using a single sword of that length.


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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 4 days ago #88322

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26" blades with Ultrasaber something hilts. IDK what they are lol.

I can do this with 37" blades but I lose too many of the benefits with dual weilding
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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 4 days ago #88342

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Looks great! I understand that this is a drill, but can you show it at full speed as part of a flow session or a velocity, how you would actually use it?


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Serious discourse for dual wielding 1 month 4 days ago #88344

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I will work on that. Single Sinawali lays the ground work. Actual double weapon combat has the basic principles of this but there are a lot of differences between the drill and the combat.

This particular drill is really

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