TOPIC: Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Darth Justicar wrote:
Totally agree. When I saw him "catch" Poe's blaster bolt I was like, "HOLY SH*T!!!"

Yoda isn't exactly on Area 51's List of Known Alien Species, though. He held the position of Grand Master in the Old Order for a reason. His 800s were towards the end of his prime, and he knew it after hitting the ground as hard as he did at the end of III. He was a true master of Form IV, which made it possible to do those epic moves. However, exile on Dagobah almost certainly blunted his skills.

But he was still a teacher, and he taught Luke enough to be able to hold his own against his father, whom as we all know overpowered him with some brutal strikes and mind bending back in ESB. I have no doubts that if Han Solo could still be a badass with a blaster at like 70, then Luke Skywalker, a Jedi Master who had been training new Jedi until shortly before his exile, can and will be as strong as he was in ROTJ, especially if he got in time to study in between ROTJ and TFA. Which brings me back to the fact that it's ridiculous for him to not have at least dabbled in dual wielding, let alone holding on to his lightsaber.

Knytiri wrote: Its cause people are upset that Kylo didn't turn out to be the typical super evil, kills everybody, strikes fear into subordinates and then chokes them to death for no reason (aka ANOTHER Darth Vader). I hate these type of fans, you can't satisfy them with anything they make. I thought Kylo Ren was an excellent villain because, unlike Vader, you can actually feel for him or relate to him. Vader was just plain evil, badass yes, but still typically evil. Kylo Ren aka Ben is incredibly conflicted. He's scared of himself, his past, and he's being torn apart. This leads him to act maliciously but as we can in the film he still feels the light side. He's so obsessed with Vader that he becomes oblivious to the fact that Vader redeemed himself and died as Anakin Skywalker, a warrior of the light. That is why the Skywalker saber chose Rey and not Ben at the end.

That's an interesting interpretation of that scene.

Personally I found Kylo the most interesting of the new crew. Rey's characterization didn't have much space for nuance, Finn was fun and so was Poe but it was Kylo's struggle(s) that engaged me the most.

GreyJedi...Vader was typical evil in the first two films, yes, but I found there to be a lot of subtlety to the mannerisms Mr. Prowse imbued him with in Return of the Jedi, where you could see the conflict in him. The big difference with Ren is that he willingly unmasked and let us SEE all of it play out in front of us, and on top of that, he is still so young and not fully formed as a personality no matter how much he thinks he is.

This is part of what opened me up to wanting to cosplay as him: it's not just convenient to me that sometimes I will be able to take off my mask and not have to put up with that the whole day. It's about the fact that we were given an opportunity to see the vulnerable and uncertain young man underneath the mask. I've heard people criticize how immature he was, but it's a real, legitimate character choice. I understand not everyone likes their villains that way and that's okay. Not everyone has to think like me.

But for me, just as Harrison Ford got these haunted looks that could just about kill, seeing that look on Kylo's face after Han fell, when no one was close enough to get a good look and Snoke wasn't there to punish him for it...I didn't catch it the first time I saw the movie, but the second time, oh my goodness. That look, to me, said remorse, no matter how much he tries to cover it up.

While I have seen some fan theories claiming he's a double agent that I think are WAY too far (no way Luke would've just tolerated the Knights of Ren slaughtering his padawans or a lot of other things Ren did), I do find myself wondering if Kylo has serious second thoughts, but similar to someone who has fallen in with a cult or an abusive relationship, cannot figure out how to get out. Even his rage-filled outbursts could be more than simply a "gooooood, feeeel the hate" thing, but self-loathing due to his own sense of helplessness.

Mind you, I am not letting him off for his actions; he's got a LOT to answer for, and that's putting it mildly. But that's what I got from his characterization. Again I know some people won't like that, and that's okay. I only speak for myself.

Eddlyss64 wrote:
There's an episode of Dinner for Five where Mark Hamill says he (along with the fight choreographer) pitched a more dynamic fighting style involving lots of spins and one handed grips for the saber fights for ROTJ, but Lucas vetoed, saying, "Lightsabers are heavy, like Excalibur." So I wouldn't be surprised if Mark would push for Luke to get one more fight.

The whole episode is worth watching (it features Stan Lee, J.J. Abrams, Jason Lee, and Kevin Smith), but Mark's part starts around the 10:50 mark:

Eddlyss64 wrote: While I certainly don't deny your reasoning, I find myself in the "Unlikely" camp. I'm still really anxious about what role lightsabers will play in the new trilogy. The dueling in the VII was spot on for the context of these characters, and the traditional forms as handed down and previously canonized by fans have been all but erased. I would love to see something exciting like Rey using a saber pike, or someone duel wielding (though I still wouldn't peg it as Luke), but when they said that the lightsaber battles would be different in the new trilogy, I kinda took that as a "don't get your hopes up if you liked the prequel stuff."

But Jedi Master Luke engaging in a duel just needs to happen.

What're the chances that Ren completes/fixes his saber?

Anyone expecting a turnaround like this:


Unlikely, but fun to think about.

h2soy wrote: I love film analysis to death, I could analyze archetypes of characters as well as the style of directing till I die. All the characters (and the actors CHOSEN for the roles) blew me away because I understood what they were. Kylo Ren is...the lost or fallen angel. He's young and naive. He has so much potential to be good but has been corrupted by the true evil figure of the story. At first I thought I wasn't going to like Rey, but at the end of movie I was all about her. Just like Luke, she's really a nobody who became a somebody. We were ALL fooled when we thought that Finn was suppose to be the Jedi but it was actually Rey. Finn's role was for comic relief but he was there to also inspire the audience of bravery and action. Finn is what I like to call the cowardly lion: he runs away from the First Order because he's scared of what they can do and what they WILL do to anyone who stands in their way. He's actually playing it smart and tried to get away from the conflict before the Bantha fodder hit the fan (which it did). Yes Finn was a coward but he had his reason BUT in the END, after witnessing Rey getting flung to a tree by a raging young dark Jedi, he picked up that saber and did what needed to be done; Finn knew he was going to lose, but that wasn't the point of Finn, the point was that he had to be brave, to find his courage even in the face of danger and utter death.

If you want to really look at film symbolism GreyJedi...it's actually some of Abrams' imagery with the Starkiller base that has got me seriously speculating about what will happen to Kylo Ren in the last episode.

Did you notice Poe Dameron (I think it was Poe) saying that as long as there was visible light from the sun the Starkiller was draining, then there was a chance? The flip side of that, of course, is that after that point, there is no more hope. Yet notice when the critical strike against the base is made, that destabilizes it enough to destroy it. AFTER the death of all outward light. After the seeming point of no return. And what should burst forth from it when it's destroyed but a very much living miniature star?

I noticed that the imagery was rather similar when Kylo murdered his father: no more visible light from the outside, and then he kills Han. This act is so horrible that I am seeing a lot of fans saying he will NEVER, EVER come back to the light after that--that it is completely unforgivable. And yes, it IS a horrible thing. But after the exact same thing was alluded to with the Starkiller base...that past a certain point where you could no longer see any evidence of hope that none existed, and yet the light still won...

I could very easily be reading WAY too much into that. But I think what we get is Ren seeming to be spiraling down further in 8, and then in 9, breaking. And IF things go as I hope...surviving. Hopefully this would not be an easy, immediate "All is forgiven!" kind of survival. Hopefully he would have to learn to LIVE with the guilt instead of running like he's trying to run now. But I do think he could well break, much like Raskolnikov at the end of Crime and Punishment.

Eddlyss64 wrote:
I've seen the movie 4 times now, and I'm looking at my 5th round this coming weekend. I have to say that on my first watch, this scene bothered me a bit as well. However, on my second go-round, and there after I haven't been so mad at it.

I think at first I was most bothered by the lack of "flare" present in the scene. With each movie, the lightsaber combat was progressively better than the last. We had a back-to-basics scene, so to speak, with Ep 7. JJ explained however that this was intentional and he was looking for more of an ignite to kill style... hack and slash if you will. Ok, mission accomplished. So now as I watch this scene I appreciate what is in front of me without expectations.

Now, I have to disagree that Finn "hardly" stood up to Ben. He was ultimately defeated, but he stood his ground and was in fact the aggressor for most of the fight, landing almost the same blow that Luke did to Vader in ESB. I imagine that his weapons training with the mace as a Storm Trooper played a part in him knowing how to wield the lightsaber... maybe... Perhaps he was not proficient but he certainly was effective in the short period of time.

Rey fought that entire fight retreating. Striking and being swatted away. She lasted longer because she was barely engaged. That is, until The Force Awakens and she let's it in. But, who's to say that she isn't channeling another Force User; as Luke did Obi Wan in his first encounter with Vader? Before that pivotal moment however, she was in no way winning that fight.

I would also not discount the fact that Finn could also be Force Sensitive. Consider the following:

1. JJ Abrams love for plot twists.

2. The obvious play on something "awakening" inside him when his fellow Trooper, Slip, is killed. This is the same time that Kylo Ren lands in his shuttle... a being strong in the Force with both the light and dark side calling to him. If you read "Before the awakening" Finn clearly has a conscience and cares for the people that are close to him, but this was different. It was more of an enlightenment, an epiphany... an awakening. At this point, he had to make a choice...

3. When Kylo is leaving the same scene, he stops dead still to look at Finn. He can feel the Force "awakening" in him, the conflict. The same conflict within himself. He then identifies Finn from the village when they report that someone has helped Poe escape.

4. Force bonds - his attachment to Rey. Could be platonic, could be a crush, or....

5. Maz ( a force sensitive) makes a point to give the lightsaber to Finn, to find his friend. Why not Han or Chewy?

6. Finn says on Starkiller base... "we can use the Force". Yeah, it's delivered like it's meant as a joke... or is it? JJ strikes again.

7. He actually survives the duel with Kylo Ren - the Jedi Killer. Sliced in much the same manner as Anakin did many of the Seps on Mustafar, but he survives. Daddy Solo is impaled and dies...

I don't think that Ben is incompetent at all with his lightsaber. Remember, he is fighting with a fresh wound from a bowcaster. Shots from that weapon were sending troopers literally flying. Ben takes a knee from the shot like he just got kicked in the nuts, and then expeditiously gives chase to Finn and Rey. He is clearly calling on the force to sustain him through that fight.

As for Snoke... The jury is still out with him for me... I'm not sure what I think of him yet.

Of course these are just my thoughts and I'll wait to see what EP 8 brings

The Force Awakens was exactly what it needed to be. It was familiar enough to the fans to be immediately recognized as the Star Wars they remember, but a story they had yet to see, and thus a great vehicle to launch a new age of the saga! It presented us with new characters who will be the center of the upcoming stories, who are introduced to us, but by no means do we know anything substantive about them. We see them in the beginning of their story, and as it is with any opening chapter to a story, we were not meant to know much more than we do. The characters from the OT will each play an important role in the events to come, but it will ultimately fall on the new characters to stand in the light, or fall to the darkness along with the rest of the galaxy!

Rey will no doubt become more acquainted with the ways of the Force. Finn will be her loyal friend, and perhaps more. Or he could become a more active military member of the Resistance, as a way for atoning for his association with the First Order. Either would work for me. Po will be the warrior of the Resistance who will be the focus when warfare is necessary. Phasma will have a more involved role in upcoming chapters, as will Hux, and Snoke. Kylo will complete his training with Snoke and become an even more fearsome character than what we have seen, who is less given to angry outbursts, and more towards dark expressions of power that are closer to what he longed to be in TFA, which was more like Vader. With his new scars (thanks to Chewie and Rey), he might not be so quick to remove his mask in the future.

I did not expect any of the major questions posed to be answered before the end of this chapter, and I fully expect things to get darker before they get any better. Most of the best stories do. I believe there will be much more character development in Episode 8, which will endear us to these new characters even more than we already are.

Was it perfect, of course not. However it was very good, and hit all the major notes that it had to hit to rank as one of the better installments for me. I still have not come down on a number placement in the overall saga, but I would think it is at least in my top 4, and after additional viewings (at the theater, or the eventual disk release), it could go a little higher.

Yes, I firmly believe that this was a very good opening chapter to a trilogy that will get better as it goes. Between that prospect, and the anthology movies in between, it is an exciting time to be a Star Wars fan!

The scene of Han's death was one of the most well written parts in the film, and imo one of the best I've seen of the type. Yes, I was incredibly devastated, I cried actually but after seeing it three times, I've tried to catch every detail. Let's not forget that Harrison Ford himself has been wanting to kill off his character since the beginning. JJ Abrams had to think of how to send off this legendary character properly, poetically if you like. The scene was amazing. Immediately the audience can feel the danger and the imminent death when Han walks that narrow catwalk with no rails. It's cold and silent, so silent you can hear your own heartbeat. He gets face-to-face with his son, with the one person that means the worlds to him. He wants to help because he had that obligation. He can feel Ben's pain and struggle. I don't think Ben was lying when he said he was being torn apart and he needed his help. THEN it gets dark because the sun is drained, so all you see the darkness in the room, and that lingering red light glowing on their faces. You know what is about to go down but you don't want to believe that it will. Han knew his fate was sealed when he gripped his son's saber. The unthinkable happened, our beloved smuggler was killed by his own flesh and blood. But Han tenderly touched his son's face and looked at him with eyes that told his son "I'm not angry with you, and I do not blame YOU for this, you are still Ben to me, you are not a monster." I can't think of a better way it could've gone down. Yes, I was deeply sadden about his death, but I believe it had to be done. I realized that up until I saw the movie, Han had always been alive. In the books, comics, games; Han was alive. Now he's gone.
Anyway, that's all I got to say about that.

So has anyone else heard this thing about Disney infinity star wars where during a fight between Rey and kylo, kylo shouts something along the lines of " come on COUSIN fight me " !?!?! Did Disney drop the ball ? I'm thinking they did. Also , for anyone here who may have read the SHATTERED EMPIRE comic series, what part do you think the force bush Luke gave to pro's parents is going to play? I'm thinking that po is force sensitive and that's how he flies the way he does.

Kylo says "Curses!" not "cousin!" This has been debunked. Possibly. It will be interesting to see if the 1st tree (the one Luke keeps) pops up again.

Tonz_ wrote: Many haven't caught on, we can assume with no doubts that Rey IS Luke's daughter. And there is a lot of key evidence that points out that it will more than likely be true. I can go on forever about this, but I was able to pick up right after finishing the movie the first time. Then after seeing it a few more times I'm 90% percent sure she is a direct relative to Ben aka Kylo Ren.

h2soy wrote: Yeah, I'm sure the tree has an influence. That and good genes. His mom was a beast at the controls of a fighter. But if it's between Poe and Finn being Force sensitive (and I hope one of them is), I hope it's Finn.

"Fight me curses!"... doesn't seem to make sense. I saw that video before it was pulled down. While it wasn't exactly clear if he says "cousin", "curses" is out of place based on the inflection in his voice. He clearly begins the phrase, "Fight me" and is steady through all three words.. which would typically mean a noun or pronoun would follow.

On the other hand, I own the game, I guess I could just get to that part and find out for myself... but I'm still slowly working through Rise Against the Empire and I'm one of those that sticks to the script They probably released a patch on the sly anyway to change it up

Okay, I was inspired to dig deeper. He does seem to say what sounds like "curses" by itself when hit by an exploding barrel. So we could blame it on coding if there is a mesh of two different phrases. He could potentially be yelling "Face me!" because the code is triggered when the player is running away and "curses!" when hit by the barrel. If the player is enough of a distance away while throwing the barrel it would trigger both scripts and they could sound like one.

Either way, I still think she's a Skywalker

Ok so then I had this thought that maybe Leah sometime after Han left had some kind of fling or short lived love affair with some republic pilot ( Wedge lol )making Rey a Skywalker

Okay, one of my friends is stubbornly believing that Finn is going to die trying to save Rey. Despite the speculation aspect of this that does make it possible by a tiny bit, this isn't gonna happen. I have a pretty simple reason for that, and that is (besides how corny and lame it sounds) that we've already lost a protagonist. I give you what I call the Mentor Complex. Each new trilogy has sparked new fans of SW to crop up, and in each trilogy, in the beginning of its' arc, a beloved mentor like character dies, which touches new and old fans alike.

Ep 1: Qui-Gon Jinn
Well liked mentor character to main protagonist
Killed by Sith

Ep 4: Obi-Wan "Ben" Kenobi
Well liked mentor character to main protagonist and hero from previous trilogy
Killed by Vader-Sith and former apprentice

Ep 7: Han Solo
Well liked mentor character to main protagonist and hero from previous trilogy
Killed by Ben Solo/Kylo Ren-"Sith" and son

Those are the only protagonists to die in such a way in SW, which theoretically debunks the question of Finn's potential death.