TOPIC: Do Gray Jedi exist, or get cake and eat it to

Let's open this can of worms! No there aren't. If you are part of the temple you are Jedi. However if you leave, get booted or Home schooled. You are?????? Force adepts,

Have fun, debate but keep it civil

Technically, being a "Jedi" means taking on certain commitments. As you said, being joined to the Order. Ahsoka acknowledges as much after leaving. I see "Gray Jedi" as a fan colloquialism that's convenient for distinguishing these types of characters. I don't think there's a common in-universe way to refer to them. People in the know would call them former Jedi. People out of the know will probably still call them Jedi.

Well put. These are the guys in an "RPG" would be Chaotic Neutral and when attacked. They would instantly have Mandalorian armor "Beskar?" That is Lightsaber resistant. Though force users who aren't Jedi could be just as influential. Though I tend to view it as my team "Mustangs" I'm with and a mustang. Or recruited to someone else " Sith/ Dark Jedi". Or simply a force user who is Ronin . The last is me

A grey Jedi is essentially an unorthodox Jedi who likes to do things their way rather than the way they've been directed by the council. They are quite solace in their lives but nonetheless a Jedi. The term can widely be used to describe a force user that doesn't give a crap about light or dark, instead they balance between the two residing everso nicely, you could say right in the middle. These Jedi are seen as dangerous, a renegade, or uncontrollable by council members just because they don't like being told what to do and how. Quite the contrary, most grey Jedi are pretty thoughtful and down to earth individuals. Grey Jedi aren't a formal or official organization or branch from the Jedi order which can be seen, by the less experienced, as a common misconception. You can say these Jedi are like ronin, a samurai without a master. Qui-gon Jin and Quinlan Vos were considered to be grey Jedi. A perfect example of the balance a grey Jedi can achieve would be Revan.
I'd like to think myself as a Grey, I like the philosophy taught by Kyle Katarn regarding the use of certain force powers or abilities has no relevance to which you are aligned to, rather it is how you use them.

Borommakot wrote: Jedi who leave the order for their own philosophical reasons are called the lost. The term "grey" isn't really used to identify Jedi who left or abandoned the order per se, kinda like an ex-Jedi. Those people are known as the lost. For example, Count Dooku is part of the lost because he left the order, but he IS Sith because he allied himself and gave himself to the ways of the Darkside completely whereas Ahsoka, who also left, is still mostly a light side user but does not identify herself as a Jedi anymore. Therefore she is not a Grey jedi, but a lost one. She's just a lightsaber wielding force user chick, who is also a badass; a good person with a lightsaber. Hope all this clarifies things.

greyjediDude "I'd like to think myself as a Grey, I like the philosophy taught by Kyle Katarn regarding the use of certain force powers or abilities has no relevance to which you are aligned to, rather it is how you use them".

I think that is kinda where I was going with this thead. In any form of role play, it comes off like. " ok I am gonna die unless I use lightning. I will be Dark or sith for abit than go back to being a good guy". As you know that is not how the Force works . That person in canon would have to fight going Dark, as an addict would fight staying clean. I't just comes off as convenient. Kinda like you and Billy Bob Thorton are sparring. He has a costume with metal looking plates. You finally hit him int he chest and start to backoff then your hit, with a winning blow. Yu go WTF and he says Mandalorian armor "beskar. I think". The judge was told about it and No one else. Next thing you know is your benched.. How frustrated would you be, he hit you pretty hard after you hit him and lost. Oddly I think the 50 shades of gray describes things. lmao. and I bet Mr. Thorton would agree

Yes yes we do and it's chocolate cake

In the canon there are no "Gray Jedi." No ifs. Ands. Buts.

In the EU video game, Knights of the Old Republic, there was one Jedi who self identified as "gray," Jolee Bindo, but the term is not present in any of the novels or comic books. Throughout the novels there were several Jedi who dabbled in relativistic philosophy but they were either 1) branded heretics 2) turned out to be Sith in disguise.

"Gray Jedi" is a fanon term that people began to use to describe those Jedi who they perceive to skew from the typical behaviors and beliefs of the Jedi Order. This, I suspect, was a response to how.... disappointing the Jedi behaved in the prequels. In the OT Jedi were posited as knights in shining armor and the prequels revealed them to actually have been stuffy, cultish, hypocritical, and (frankly) rather boring. It's no small wonder so many fans began to to look for an alternative narrative to what a Jedi could be and formulated the idea of the "Gray Jedi."

Personally, when it comes to "Gray Jedi," I have no issue with people writing fanfiction, making cosplays, or other original content that features this concept. In fact, I think it's pretty cool and should be encouraged. I do take issue when people try to shoehoen existing characters into this non-canon idea. Typically you see gross leaps of logic, strawman arguments, and bizarre rationals to why "X" character was actually "gray."

The SW canon actually gives us many alternative to the Jedi/Sith dichotomy when it comes to force users/adepts. You have the Nightsisters, Leia Organa, the Lestat, whatever Maz Kanta is, the Knights of Ren, just to name a few. It's also very clear that when Jedi leave the Order they have NO desire to refer to themselves as Jedi anymore (as greyjedidude pointed out and see the example of Ahsoka Tano). IMO people are horribly unimaginative when they keep on leaning so heavily on fanon concepts of Jedi/Gray/Sith because there's a whole spectrum of force adepts that they could utilize.

TLDR: "Gray Jedi" aren't canon. They can exist in fanon.

If you are talking strict canon, no.. Because Disney has now said that only the 7 movies, the clone wars cartoons, and the comics that they have released in the last year are canon. They removed all extended universe from canon.

However if we go outward.. The users of force started with the Je'daii on Tython, who thought that the force was all.. to be one with the force you had to balance the "light" and "Dark" side of it in yourself.

Further there is Leor Danal, the first Kage of the grey council. Their code;

Flowing through all, there is balance
There is no peace without a passion to create
There is no passion without peace to guide
Knowledge stagnates without the strength to act
Power blinds without the serenity to see
There is freedom in life
There is purpose in death
The Force is all things and I am the Force

The only light, only dark, works for the movies, but in a larger extended world it wouldn't be practical as those extremes would each destroy themselves. The Sith would kill and conquer until none was left, then the last one would die. The Light wouldn't advance society. They would hold a status quo of "thats how it has always been" and they would die out being unwilling to adapt.

The force as a living thing (I am ignoring the crap with the medaclorians) could be an influence on negative thoughts.. amplifying what you are inside. However, if you are truly a person who can balance force and restraint, than any abilities within the force are not good or evil, they are just the force.

you mean fandom and yes h2soy is right


but if we ever were as sw fandom go call revanite instead of gray for both sith and jedi

for me personally i see gray as revans path hence whyi would refer revanite over gray jedi or rogue sith

Ashoka from the Clone Wars, and now Rebels is probably the closest to a Grey Jedi that canon recognizes. She is never referred to as such, nor does she say anything like that. However, she is a force user who is no longer affiliated with either Jedi or Sith.

h2soy
I'm very aware that grey Jedi aren't canon, but it can't hurt to dream right?

greyjediDude wrote: How many Force users actually balancing between the light and dark have actually been able to remain Jedi, though?
Of the individuals commonly labeled gray, the only one I can think of not to have fallen to the dark side (and indeed become extremely dangerous) was Qui-Gon Jinn. The thing with that application is that if you're a Jedi, you're a Jedi. Even choosing not to follow the council to the letter is hardly enough to qualify as a different type of Jedi. If a Jedi isn't expelled for what they're doing, it can be assumed that it's within the bounds of being a Jedi.

I respectfully disagree with Katarn's philosophy. I see it as written into the game to give players a reason to play with both sides. I'd argue that there are definitely force powers that pertain to a particular side, regardless of your intention when using them. Lightning, choking, draining peoples' life? Besides the impossible task of justifying such powers as tools of good, using them in the first place requires tapping into certain feelings. Fear, anger and hate aren't just the path to the dark side, they're the fuel for it.
greyjediDude wrote: The only sources on "the lost" I can find refer to a specific collection of Jedi Masters who left the order, rather than all Jedi who do so. The details of how the name applied isn't really made clear. At one point even Anakin identifies himself as one of them, despite turning immediately to the dark side.
In Ahsoka's case she may not have been labeled lost because she wasn't a master. More likely, though, it's because she was actually expelled from the Order and simply chose not to return.
h2soy wrote: Which I always thought was ironic because that's exactly how historical knights often were. That and our exposure to a Jedi knight in the OT can be summed by the line "A certain point of view?"
Agreed.
I think part of the problem is that a lot of these other descriptors have qualifiers (i.e. being in a particular faction) or...aren't that descriptive. How do we refer to Ahsoka? Force adept doesn't seem to say much. Or like you said, "whatever Maz is". Granted, Jedi/Gray/Sith is over simplistic, but in some cases convenient.
schmots wrote: I have to disagree. The Jedi as a faction might not advance society, but I don't think there's anything to suggest that the followers of the light are inherently stagnant or unable to adapt.

Yet the Jedi mind trick is considered a light side techniques (or the very least entirely accepted by the Jedi) but to me is quite dark, and horribly invasive. The user is literally subverting another person's freel will to have behave in a manner they otherwise would not have.This seems evil to me.

Wasn't the Potentium considered cannon (eu)? They had certainly abandoned the Jedi path, and we're not Sith. They were much closer to the path of the original Je' daii that Schmotts mentioned, than anyone else. In fact one could legitimately argue that the Jedi themselves are heretics for abandoning the teachings of the Je daii

@ Borommakot

I have to respectfully disagree with your point to #greyjediDude. "Katarn's Philosophy" is actually that of the Unifying Force, whereby those adherent believe that the Force is a single entity, having neither a light nor a dark side. It's reference goes beyond the game... both TPM and ROTS make mention, for example. You have Jedi and Sith that subscribe to this concept. By definition, it is unified... not inherently gray.

Furthermore, the Baran Do Sages of the Kel Dor race (Master Plo Koon) were proficient in Force Lightning and were considered Seers and were non militant. Their ability to use the lightning required no fear, anger or hate. In fact, their philosophy and methodology "centered on finding inner peace and calm..."

Myself, I subscribe to the Unifying Force philosophy, but disagree with the concept of the Gray Jedi, as H2Soy has already outlined. While I do recognize the other Force factions and disciplines separately, to be Jedi or Sith, you are whole. There are no splinters. But then I am a Sith and we deal in absolutes

Jedi are WAY too restricting and I also agree that they're so boring with a linear way of thought. "You have to do this and this in so and so way. If you don't you're evil and fell to the dark side." Sith are WORSE, they believe the force is a gift and it gives them the right to control and conquer people, they deliberately and gladly use the dark side to harm. I still hold up to the way you use your abilities. I mean, I agree that the Jedi mind trick is SUPER invasive and manipulative in reality, c'mon guys lets be honest. BUT that's from and I quote from old Ben a "certain point of view". Seriously, you can easily get anybody to anything you want with a simple trick. So what if I use some damn lighting?! What if I'm using it to fight off some sith that's hurting an innocent family? What's so wrong with that? What if a force push isn't enough? So me using some of that is gonna make me automatically an evil person? Well sorry for wanting to help people. I'm not trying to be mean guys, so sorry if I come out as rude I wasn't trying to be.

Lord Callous wrote:
In what way does TPM reference the unifying Force? In RotS I assume you mean Darth Sidious' explanation, which we cannot forget is founded on his own agenda. The Unifying Forceis is ultimately non-canon (as is the Baran Do), and I believe it will remain so because of how much it conflicts with the majority of how the Force is portrayed. Which is also why I can't get behind it; according to this philosophy, a Force that has neither dark nor light, what is the explanation for the depictions of "negative" aspects/use of the Force, a.k.a. what everyone else calls the dark side? If there is no light or dark, what reason is there for these people becoming addicted to this dark element and being twisted away from their normal selves? It's starkly at odds with what is presented elsewhere.

To be fair, I don't think it's a bad concept, or that it couldn't work, but as is I don't think it fits. The problem lies in the fact that regular old human writers are working to introduce a confirmed metaphysical force into a fictional universe while other writers are trying to add a different one to the same universe, and still other writers are just trying to create different ways of viewing metaphysical forces.

greyjediDude wrote:
Is that actually true, though? The saga stories are full of examples of characters setting aside orders from the Council. I don't know of any of them are accused of being evil for doing so. We see them take action against two characters (Palpatine and Ahsoka) based on strong evidence against those characters.


I get what you're saying, but that is exactly the process that dark siders use to seduce others to follow them. First it's okay to use it as long as you're "helping" people, then it's okay to use it "for the greater good", then it's okay to use on people who "deserve it." One isn't automatically evil because they've used the dark side. But in doing so, they open themselves to it; they're exposed. And the next time it is easier to let it in.

Borommakot
So what if you can control it? Not let the beast control you? Can you be that simply weak to not be able to resist? Oh and about the story never actually admittedly saying that the Jedi were ever accused of evil in a way, well before I would agree with you BUT NOW since the last episode of Star War Rebels...yeah not so much anymore. Yoda appears in the episode and even straight up says that the Jedi had fallen to the dark side through their arrogance because of the war. They were so caught up in it that they couldn't see that they too were going down the path. They were unconciously (without their knowledgeDon't believe me? Go check it out it came out last Wednesday. Yoda even admits that he had even couldn't stop himself doing the same. The Jedi Council adamantly couldn't admit that they were being manipulated by a Sith, and that for the sake of good, had to play his game to survive. THAT is also said in the Clone Wars show. And both are considered canon. Hey, this is just a friendly conversation alright bro, no hard feelings?

greyjediDude wrote: Basically, I'll believe it when I see it. I mean, who has tried and succeeded? If there are any, there are also many more than that who have tried and failed, often with absolutely catastrophic consequences. In the end, what makes it worth it?
This is pretty different from what I was referring to. I wouldn't argue that the dark side undermined and destroyed the Jedi; that was at the root of the Prequels' story.
I hope I haven't said anything suggesting I've got hard feelings. It's just a discussion about the Force.

It's a wonder the Jedi had any members left, if they truly subscribed to such an absolute definition of the light side. No sentient can be 100% good or evil, it's all a shade of gray, and the degree to which a person allows themselves to fall, and whether or not the individual regrets that fall, and tries to repent/redeem themselves.
The Jedi code should have been a set of ideals for the Jedi to aspire to, not a set of absolute rules that the breaking any one of which would lead to expulsion. I would think this would lead to most and possibly all Jedi hiding their transgressions if not out and out denying even to themselves that they occurred.
Personally I believe that someone who admits their faults and confronts them openly is stronger than one who does not. Just as the person who allows themselves to feel fully, but does not allow Rhode feelings to control them is far stronger than either the person who succumbs to their emotions or the person who suppresses them.